web hosting short URLs photo sharing

	GOALS						PENALTIES				GOALS						PENALTIES
31 Danny Lorenz  (N/M)	No.	G	A	A	Time	PP/SH	No.	Offence	Dur	Time	No.	G	A	A	Time	PP/SH	No.	Offence	Dur	Time	31 Joaquin Gage N/M
35 Pasi Hakkinen (N/M)	1	11	14	5	10.54		5	Elbows	2	7.02	1	14	17	13	37.35	PP	30	HoldStick	2	3.56	33 Colin Ryder N/M
4 Brent Pope	2	11	61	5	58.15	PP	61	Roughing	2	10.12	2	16	14	21	38.24	PP	41	Roughing	2	10.12	3 Ryan Risidore
5 Patrik Wallenberg	3						4	Unsportlike	2	10.40	3	30	17	13	51.37		16	Unsportlike	2	10.40	5 Alan Schuler (C)
8 Clayton Norris	4						77	Holding	2	12.30	4						16	Roughing	2	20.49	11 Cam Bristow
10 Randall Weber	5						72	Slashing	2	15.29	5						5	Holding	2	23.35	12 Mike Jickling
11 Greg Hadden (A)	6						72	Misconduct	10	15.29	6						16	Roughing	2	30.12	13 Dody Wood
14 Frank Evans	7						14	HoldStick	2	33.25	7						19	Roughing	2	35.51	14 Jonathan Weaver
16 Claude Savoie	8						24	Roughing	2	35.51	8						12	Interference	2	42.45	16 Shawn Byram
17 PC Drouin	9						14	Roughing	2	36.30	9						28	Ill.Equip.	2	52.53	17 Ed Courtenay
X 18 A.J. Kelham DND* X	10						8	Roughing	2	55.54	10						21	Slashing	2	55.54	19 Mike Harding
19 Steve Moria	11										11						27	Hooking	2	57.55	21 Ian Herbers
X 21 Ashley Tait DND* X	12										12						13	Roughing	2	59.23	22 Phil Crowe
X 22 Paul Adey DND* X	13										13										27 Rhett Gordon (A)
24 Jimmy Drolet	14										14										28 Anders Hillstrom
32 Joel Poirier (C)	15										15										30 Dino Bauba
X 42 Paul Moran DND* X	16										16										41 Johan Silfwerplatz (A)
X 44 Barry Nieckar (A) DND* X	17										17										X 43 Paddy WardDND* X
55 Darren Maloney	18										18
61 Christian Sjogren
72 Lee Jinman
77 Calle Carlsson

* Did Not Dress

Notes:

31 Danny Lorenz and 31 Joaquin Gage started in nets.  The Panthers' starting forward lines were Drouin/Jinman/Savoie, Hadden/Poirier/Wallenberg, Norris/Moria/Sjogren.  The Panthers' starting defensive lines were Carlsson/Pope, Drolet/Maloney, Evans/Carlsson with the five D-men then rolling round.

There was much hilarity at the start of the game as the announcer named each Panthers' player as he came onto the ice.  The problem was that his microphone kept cutting out (as it has been doing for several games) and it appeared that he was welcoming exciting new signings such as Calle Arls and Christ Ogren.  Also quite who Trevor Wallenberg is, God only knows.  5 Patrik Wallenberg's lesser known brother perhaps.

At 14.54, several players crashed into netminder 31 Danny Lorenz in a goalmouth scramble.  Lorenz took a while to get up and required treatment to his neck on the ice before continuing.

At 15.29, 72 Lee Jinman appeared to be blatantly hauled down in the offensive zone while carrying the puck.  However referee Rowe gave the penalty against Jinman for Slashing causing uproar amongst the crowd.  Jinman was also obviously unimpressed as he tapped his stick once against the plexi-glass of the sin bin as the following face off was about to be dropped.  Rowe immediately added a 10 minute Misconduct on top of the 2 minutes.

The coincidental penalties on 24 Jimmy Drolet and 19 Mike Harding resulted after Drolet legally checked Harding and Harding turned angrily and lashed out at him with his stick.  Fortunately Harding's stick missed and clouted the boards instead.  Some eyeballing followed but no scuffling.  Rowe in his infinite wisdom decided to throw both men in the bin for Roughing.

The turning point of the game came at 37.35 when the Eagles scored a powerplay goal.  In the sin bin were Drolet and Harding serving their coincidental penalties with 19 seconds remaining.  The powerplay had occurred when 14 Frank Evans took a Holding The Stick penalty half a minute after the Drolet/Harding incident.  When the Eagles scored on this powerplay, Rowe ordered Drolet out of the bin leaving in Evans with 55 seconds left.  4 Brent Pope and 11 Greg Hadden seemed to argue this point with Rowe but he was having none of it.  19 seconds after the restart, Harding came out of the box and the Eagles began a second 36 second powerplay on the same Evans penalty.  They duly scored on this powerplay at 38.24 and the crowd's abuse and booing of Rowe reached fever pitch and remained there for the rest of the game.  The anomaly apparently sprang from a rule change the ISL implemented a few years back where the first man in is the first man out in such circumstances unless the first two penalties are 'coincidental'.  The definition of 'coincidental' is also dodgy as 'coincidental' penalties can only be called while another penalty is already in progress.  As the Drolet/Harding penalties occurred while both teams were five on five, the penalties were not deemed coincidental.  If they had been four on four, they would have been and Evans would have come out of the bin when Ayr scored.  Confused ?  You will be.  The Panthers management appealed to the ISL for the rule to be amended after this game.

28 Anders Hillstrom's penalty for Illegal Use Of Equipment at 52.53 resulted when he played on after losing his helmet.

At 54.14, 17 P.C. Drouin took a slap shot from point which struck 13 Dody Wood who had dived to the ice to block it.  There was a cheer from the crowd at this as Wood had been taunting the fans above the bench at the end of the second period.  However, it became apparent that he wasn't getting up and he required treatment on the ice.  When he did finally make his feet, the crowd applauded him off the ice.  Wood missed a couple of shifts, but returned to play soon after.

At 55.33, Rowe further ingratiated himself with the Nottingham crowd as he blew a play dead by mistake.  The Panthers were bearing down on the Ayr net.  31 Joaquin Gage made one save but the rebound fell in front of him in the middle of a scramble.  He tried to put his glove on it and Rowe blew the play dead the moment Gage's glove hit the ice.  However, Gage had actually missed the puck completely when he attempted to cover it.  As the whistle blew, Panthers' fans were greeted with the rather desperate sight of 8 Clayton Norris standing helplessly just outside the crease with the puck and an entirely empty net in front of him.

At 58.50, the Panthers pulled their netminder.

At 59.23, there was a scuffle around the Ayr crease.  Roughly seven players were all tied up with each other in a big, angry hug at which point 13 Dody Wood skated around the back and flattened 24 Jimmy Drolet.  Wood received 2 minutes for Roughing.

Guestbook Comments

Name: hugh
Sent: 20.22 - sun 6 jan 2002

this game is really getting me down.

HOW THE **** did the panthers off ice officials manage to cost us the match, I assume it was them who gave the extra PP to the eagles which they scored on.

According to iceweb, which is correct.

35.51 Jimmy Drolet 2mins roughing
35.51 Mike harding 2mins roughing

4 on 4

36.30 evans 2mins roughing

4 on 3

37.35 goal weaver

back to 4 on 4

37.51 harding comes out but for some reason drolets has to stay put because someone got rid of the wrong penalty.

5 on 4 !!

38.24 Byram scores a PP goal!!!

Rowe probably assumed that the time bench got it right so he played on, what the hell were the off ice officals doing, the rules are pretty damn simple, if you score a goal on a pp the penalty gets wiped out, not the co-incidental one.

It's enough to make me want to give up, this is a proffessional league and it's bad enough with the refs we've got ruining games by calling pointless penalties and missing blatent ones but not the off ice officials to.

ahh well. The game was poor after period one. Rowe made some terrible calls that changed the game from a fast flowing one to a really scrappy affair. Weber should have had more sense than to argue with the ref while coutney was busy picking his spot for a pass (and what a pass.)

I thought the Sjogren/Moria/Norris line was top notch tonight and hadden also had a great game but jinman and drouin were guilty of trying to take the world on again.

a really crap weekend as far as the panthers go, we're struggling for 4th place now when we could have been 2nd.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Adam
The Hockey Shirt You Wear: Old Panthers
Location: Home
Sent: 20.37 - mon 7 jan 2002

My personal opinion of Mike Rowe is that he's one of the best we have along with Simon Kirkham. I put it down to a very bad night at the office on his part, nothing more sinister than that (Insert Selmar theories here!). I have to agree with the opinion on Staniforth, he missed one of the most obvious offside calls i've ever seen in the last two minutes of the game with us on the offensive. I can't remember who was bringing the puck into Ayr's zone, but I think it was Wallenberg on our side who must have been a whole five yards offside, and no i'm not exaggerating.

As for this weekend just gone, well if we don't start improving from our blip soon then fifth looks a very realistic finishing-spot. More effort from the team please.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Ally
The Hockey Shirt You Wear: Panthers Home
Location: Loughborough
Sent: 18.08 - mon 7 jan 2002

I for one was disappointed with Norris last night. With Barry out surely it's Norris' job to step it up as the enforcers role but he never seemed to be there when things started building up. And then, with Baz in the stands, (well ok signing autographs for his fan club) and it nearing the end of a close game I thought "at least Baz won't take a stupid penalty today." Step forward Mr Clayton Norris. With Rowe's arm already in the air for a delayed call against the Eagles and Norris having lost his stick he decides to punch an ayr player (didn't see who) over the head, knocking his helmet off and getting himself a penalty that removed the chance of us getting a 6 on 4 advantage once Danny was pulled.

We were pretty poor, and sometimes it felt like Ayr would only have had to have brought Gage to win! But I think a lot of the dump & chase was because in the 3rd the Eagles were just forming a human wall across their blue line (must be a technical term for that) to stop us breaking through it.

A thought on Mike Rowe - perhaps someone who studies refs more closely or has seen more hockey than me could answer this - but he seemed to stand a really long way from the play. He always seemed to be making calls from the ther side of the rink, and that was why he didn't spot it when Gage dropped the puck for the 1st time all night and Norris might have been about to score.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Girl In A '32' Shirt
Homepage: http://www.pantherslair.co.uk
Homepage Title: Panthers' Lair
The Hockey Shirt You Wear: Poirier '32' Panthers' Home shirt
ICQ Number: Look for my name - But mention this site or I won't authorise you
Location: Beside the last game stick of Niffty#24
Sent: 16.04 - mon 7 jan 2002

Everyone's happy again then ? Not surprised after last night. I thought we played well until the powerplay debacle and then everyone got distracted, chippy and all discipline went. We were leading 1-0 for half the game remember, so we couldn't have been that bad.

And the wrong man did come out of the box. I've seen the wrong man come out once before in a game, but if this is apparently the correct way it works then referee's have been getting it wrong in other games letting the wrong guy out time and again. The player who causes the powerplay is the one who comes out ie.Evans. Quite how Drolet and Harding's simultaneous penalties weren't coincidental I don't know. That penalty in itself was Rowe doing his usual evening up garbage anyway as Drolet legally checked Harding (and not even that hard) while Harding took a swing at Drolet with his stick, fortunately missing and belting the boards.

What about that stop of play a few minutes from the end where Rowe called the play dead early ? Gage missed the puck totally when he tried to cover it with his glove and it came loose to Norris in front of an entirely open goal. I didn't see Rowe signal man in the crease or a facemask or anything, so I can only think he was too whistle happy and cost us a certain goal. I'm not saying it was all Rowe's fault as we went to pot after Ayr got it back to 2-1, but he didn't help at all.

We did still have some good shots on Gage though and I thought Gage played a blinder AGAIN. We actually managed to get a player in front of him on a couple of occassions too which is more than we usually do, but still not enough. Hadden seems to be the popular choice for Man Of The Match. Evans didn't have a bad game at all, but the MOM ? Hmmmmmm.

I don't think we missed Baz at all. Pope and Norris handled the enforcer duties fine out there. Now Baz has reached his game penalties limit, surely his usefulness as an enforcer is severely diminished. There's no point being an enforcer if you're sat in the stands and the opposition knows thats where you'll end up every time you slap someone. There were scuffles with Jinman and Courtenay having a go at each other. Also probably one of the less adviseable mismatches was Wallenberg squaring up to Dody Wood. No big fights though, just handbags.

Not sure we missed Ash either to be honest unless he's needed to get Drouin off the same line as Jinman. I'm not convinced they work well together.

Comedy Moment Of The Match: Before it started (oddly enough) the announcer doing yet another Norman Collier impersonation on the worst microphone in the league. Claud Avo and Ent Ope ? And the one name he got out in one piece ? Who the smeg is Trevor Wallenberg exactly ???
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: The-Hammer
Homepage: http://www.davethehammer.co.uk
The Hockey Shirt You Wear: Boozehounds #88
Location: Bracknell
Sent: 13.39 - mon 7 jan 2002

Re: The coincidental Penalties

As far as I am aware coincidental penalties can only be called when there is a penalty in progress, i.e. if the teams are skating at 5-on-5 and two players get called roughing minors then the penalties must be shown on the clock and the teams will play 4-on-4.

Hope this helps
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: twix
Location: work, sort of
Sent: 18.34 - mon 7 jan 2002

A couple of quotes pinched from the online rules.

The first is from the British national league which I believe follows IIHF rules.

" If, while a team is "SHORT-HANDED" by one or more Minor or Bench Minor Penalties, the opposing team scores a goal, the first of such penalties assessed shall automatically terminate.
Note 1: "Short-handed" means that the team must be below the numerical strength of its opponents on the ice at the time the goal is scored. Thus, an equal number of Minor or Major Penalties to an equal number of players of both teams does not cause either team to be "short-handed"

Erm . Seems pretty clear to me. The rule states what we all thought it did! Not a mention of whether or not the initial penalties were coincental or not. That's a side issue and has nothing to do with the short-handed ruling.

I'm not sure if the ISL follow IIHF rules or another set that they've made up on the spot. They don't bother to include their full rule book online, presumably because we'd see how often it is wrongly interpreted. Instead they have put time and effort into producing a shortened version for fans. This version includes the statement:

"Normally, a player who takes a penalty leaves his team "short-handed" and the opposing team are said to be on a "powerplay."

Which is as in depth as it gets coz we're all too thick to cope with more info :). However, Ayr were definitely not on a "powerplay" as a result of Drolet's penalty. From the above statement then, Drolet had not caused the team to be short-handed.

Whilst I don't think the coincidental penalty ruling should have any bearing on what happened yesterday (That only concerns number of men on the ice and in the box), I think Hammer is right. When both teams are playing 5 on 5, coincidentals ALWAYS show on the clock.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Adam
Homepage Title: My e-mail address is there for all to use....
The Hockey Shirt You Wear: Old Panthers
Location: Bakersfield
Sent: 00.30 - mon 7 jan 2002

Right, after seeing an absolutely shocking Panthers performance last night I full expected that things would pick up tonight agains the Eagles. How wrong could I be!? The passing was awful, Gage hardly had a taxing save to make, generally Ayr just skated there way through the game without as much as breaking sweat until the last 3 or 4 minutes arrived on us when they were trying to hold on to a two goal lead.

Although it was not as bad as last nights performance (what the hell could be?!) we still showed that we can be bullied around in our own rink by a team who endured an eight hour bus trip to Bracknell last night, went 4-1 down and scrapped hard for a win and still manage to show us who's boss bad decisions aside.  I'm sorry but that simply ISN'T good enough in my book.

I accept that goals one or two for Ayr were dubious to say the least (concerning the penalties against us), but we had enough time to come back from them, but where was the heart, determination and drive (as well as the majority of the game before those incidents occurred)????? Sadly lacking again in that respect (once again).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: Jono#72
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/catswhiskersfanzine
Homepage Title: Whiskers on the WEB
The Hockey Shirt You Wear: New away
Location: Basford, Nottingham
Sent: 22.04 - sun 6 jan 2002

Seriously now, what a dissapointment tonight was. I must admit after yesterdays debacle I wasn't expecting much from tonights game, but why when we go into the 3rd period 1 goal down do we play dump (a variation of dump & chase without the chase bit).
I'd really like to see the team play with a bit more passion and determination, not one who's heads go down when the going gets tough.
As for the officiating tonight, just crap all round yet again, I know I and many others keep saying it but something really must be done. Time for a mass e-mailing of Ice hockey UK & The ISL methinks.
It was said after the Moscow game 'Why can't we play like that every game?' and that question still remains unanswered.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: adeyfan(still)!
The Hockey Shirt You Wear: adey (black)
Location: n
Sent: 21.24 - sun 6 jan 2002

Hugh / Simon - assuming that the ISL are using IIHF rules, rule 402 states
"(c) If, while a team is "SHORT-HANDED" by one or more Minor or Bench Minor Penalties, the opposing team scores a goal, the first of such penalties assessed shall automatically terminate.

Note 1: "Short-handed" means that the team must be below the numerical strength of its opponents on the ice at the time the goal is scored. Thus, an equal number of Minor or Major Penalties to an equal number of players of both teams does not cause either team to be "short-handed"

On the face of it, the 'first in first out' interpretation would therefore appear to be correct!

However, the US copy of the rules then adds the folowing footnote to rule 402
"the penalty which terminates is the first minor or bench minor penalty (non-coincident) then being served by the `shorthanded' team."
Therefore, since Drolet's penalty was 'co-incidental', then Evans should have come out of the box! It's no wonder that there was confusion at the time! The only certain thing is that if MoM Frank Evans hadn't took such a penalty during a 4 on 4, then we would have concede no powerplay goals at all!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Simon Morley
Sent: 23.52 - sun 6 jan 2002

And Adeyfan which ever way ya read it, Evans should have come out first....

" If, while a team is "SHORT-HANDED" by one or more Minor or Bench Minor Penalties"

We were not short-handed by 2 players..... Drolet didn't make us short handed... we were short handed by Evans....

It's really very simple.

Evan comes back on the ice under IIHF rules and by the US version
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: SROG
Location: Nottm (at work - boo!)
Sent: 13.33 - mon 7 jan 2002

Simon M, spot on, Evans made us shorthanded, & Ayr scored so Evans comes out the box, leaving the 2 penalties called at the same time to run down & end AT THE SAME TIME. It's in the IIHF & NHL rules so why not the ISL rulebook??? And by the way, was i the only one that spotted Ed C point at Weaver as if to move him to the right place pass to him & he scored & yet none of our players seemed to move even in the general direction of Weaver to try & stop/intercept the pass!!! Irrespective of the penalty cock-up, we still played very lethargically (that's the cleaned up version) & didn't deserve to win......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Stef
Location: At home
Sent: 22.19 - mon 7 jan 2002

I am one of the off-ice officials who supposedly cost Panthers the match on Sunday.

First, and most importantly, it is not our job to think about whether what we do (unpaid, incidentally) will cost either team the match.

Basically, ISL play to the IIHF rulebook with some modifications e.g. touch icing instead of red line icing. At risk of being pedantic about this, the situation with those penalties at the end of the second is covered by a footnote to rules 501 and 502, which has already been quoted but which I will quote again:

'If, while a team is short handed because of one or more minor or bench minor penalties, the opposing team scores a goal, the FIRST of such penalties shall automatically terminate.'

So, when Weaver scores Nottingham are short handed. On the clock the first Nottingham penalty is Drolet's. He goes back on.

This has been the rule for a number of seasons. My recollection is that the change was made because under the old rule of the player making you short handed being the one to go back on, situations arose where penalty boxes were full and there were big disputes between players and officials over who was making a team short handed. Basically, whichever way you deal with multiple penalties has flaws.

Drolet's and Harding's penalties were not 'coincidental' because, and I quote again (sorry):

'When an equal number of identical penalties (minor, major or match) are assessed to both teams at the same stoppage of play, such penalties shall be known as COINCIDENTAL PENALTIES.

There is only one exception to this rule: when both teams are at FULL STRENGTH on the ice......if only ONE minor penalty is assessed to ONE player on each team at the SAME STOPPAGE OF PLAY.'

.......which was the position when Drolet and Harding came off.

So you were right, Hugh (and others). The rules are pretty damn simple and the above is what the hell we were doing. I wouldn't for one moment claim we get it right all the time, but on this occasion we did.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, but I suggest that before accusations like the ones being made against me and my colleagues are put into a public forum, a couple of hours with a rule book wouldn't go amiss.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go and put my toys back in my pram.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: Ian
Sent: 09.00 - mon 7 jan 2002

OK, so whether right or wrong, this "eccentricity" (or loophole) in the rules is ridiculous. However much we talk about coincidental or not, first in first out, the fact remains that Ayr scored two powerplay goals on the same MINOR penalty to Evans and that must be wrong. As to whether it cost us the game, as I've said on several occasions this season I don't believe so. We have enough talent in this team to win despite dreadful refereeing but it seems we don't have enough character. Admittedly last night was an improvement on Saturday, not difficult, and Ayr are a very tough team to play against, but we fell well short of what is required. Certain key players are pretty much passengers at the moment, while the ones showing the most heart are those we were continually told had their hearts firmly in South Wales. Says it all really.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: hugh
Sent: 20.23 - sun 6 jan 2002

well, i apologise, according to ice web it's first man in first man out????? that still means they got 2 PP's for the price of one, what a cak rule.  Cheers stef, I apologise for my rant.  I will now sit here and quietly eat my hat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Simon Morley
Sent: 00.11 - tue 8 jan 2002

Regardless of it being correct or wrong the effect of having 2 power plays on 1 penalty was devastating.....

Personally I would like to see a situation where 2 players getting penalties at the same time don't go on the clock at all....

and untill that day.... this rule about how you treat a penalty based on whether the team was 5-5 or not is a stinker.